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11:45 PM
January 30, 2012


Alison Leigh Lilly

Admin

posts 194

1

So what exactly do I believe? To answer that question, I have to go back to basics. And in going back to basics, I have to face my fear of being forever shrugged off as a newbie fluff bunny who can't be taken seriously. It's easy to say, "So what? What do you care if people take you seriously?" But as a member of a scattered, small community, a minority religion in a predominantly Christian culture, it can feel pretty devastating to be shrugged off or shuffled aside even by those you thought would welcome you with open arms. But that's the risk you have to face if you want to cultivate an open and free relationship with spirit and the sacred world. The world is far stranger and wilder than the books and experts would have you believe.

Read more…


7:25 AM
January 31, 2012


George T. Maxwell

Guest

2

Hi Alison,
Really enjoyed the read as I could relate to it (and I am a Gemini too).

Although I am not Pagan or Druid, I see my closest belief system is animism but in reality, there is 1 member of my belief system and that is me. And that's what is important. Everyone will have their own unique traditions, leanings and belief aspects but the summary is, everyone's belief is their own and it's never about making anyone follow your methods. It's self discovery.

After many years of thinking about it and like you, changing from a traditional Christian upbringing to an earthly belief, I decided to write my beliefs in my own book which is basically my bible. It helped me refine my foundation which is what you have done above.

I wish you well.

George
@ParticleAnimism
..

12:42 PM
January 31, 2012


John Beckett

New Member

posts 3

3

Alison, this is reasonable and spiritual and beautiful. It's very similar to what I believe – there are a couple of things I'd express differently, but nothing I'd nitpick, much less flat-out disagree with. You just say it a lot more eloquently than I would.

There are a lot of Pagans (and Witches and some Druids) whose calling to polytheistic authenticity produces an unfortunate side effect that sounds a lot like "more Pagan than thou" even when it isn't intended. I've had my own UPG – it's been moving and inspiring and very meaningful. I've used it to modify my beliefs and my practices, which in turn have spilled over into my public "witness" (to borrow a term from my Baptist upbringing).

At the same time, I realize a lot of Pagans and people who are receptive to Pagan concepts haven't had those experiences, so I try to express myself as you have here – in terms that are familiar and general and understandable without a degree in polytheology.

And I realize some people have had UPG experiences that are far beyond what I've had, and probably beyond what I'm capable of having. That doesn't mean I'm not a "real" Pagan. It does mean I'm not a shaman or a hedgewitch or a godspouse.

I'm a Druid and a priest. It works for me, and from all indications it works for those who called me.

2:21 PM
January 31, 2012


Harzgeist

Guest

4

You write beautifully! If you don't do it already you should start writing stories and poems; I loved the rhythm in your language.
Also I agree with what you said about some parts of the pagan community. But for me, secrecy is more of a problem than being thought of as a noob. I know for a fact that there is more than one coven in my town, but you cannot get hold of them. This makes me sad because we aren't a big community in Germany, and we should at least try to network, even if we decide not to do magical work together.

11:00 PM
January 31, 2012


Alison Leigh Lilly

Admin

posts 194

5

John, If only there were such a thing as a degree in polytheology! ;)

In all seriousness, though, I know what you mean about finding the balance in expressing UPG and theological ideas for readers who might not be theological scholars nor shared those same personal experiences. Much of my frustration with the concept of UPG is that I'm very unclear about what exactly its place is in the Pagan community (or communities, rather), though I feel more comfortable with how I've integrated it into my own spiritual life. This is a conversation that I think is worth having more in-depth. Personally, I don't even like the term "UPG" itself very much, as I think it's a somewhat misleading or inaccurate term for something that all religious traditions have to some extent and integrate into religious community experience in a wide variety of ways, something the name "UPG" kind of glosses over by treating it as a single, fairly simple concept. I explained it a little better in a forum discussion a few weeks ago (in response to someone explaining their understanding of UPG, and one of its failings, as being private and solitary in nature, as opposed to scholarly research as a community effort):

I prefer to refer to a person's "interpretive and experiential engagement" instead of using "UPG." Why? Because there is really no such thing as an entirely individualized, private "UPG." All interpretations and experiences are interpretations or experiences of something – and they are always influenced in one way or another by the socio-cultural contexts of the people having the experience or making the interpretation. That is why it is an interpretive or experiential engagement – a person is engaging with something else, either a deity, a landscape, a human community, a cultural symbol, or some combination of these things or any number of others. An experience or interpretation might be more or less unique to that individual, but it is never entirely and purely solitary.

So the distinction between UPG as private or solitary, and academic/scholarly work as the primary corroborative approach to developing a shared community understanding is, I think, a false one. There are many, many ways in which communities can build a shared spiritual tradition that does not rely on or borrow from the methods and processes of academia. I bristle a bit when Recons/CRs talk about UPG as though it were entirely private and solitary in distinction from the community approach of academic scholarship. To me, this seems to ignore the fact that an individual's interpretive framework of their experiences is always going to be shaped by their membership in one or more communities, and so the way they integrate and understand these moments of personal "gnosis," inspiration or imagination cannot be entirely separated from the cultural or communal contexts they belong to.

Rather, I think it's more likely that those moments designated as "UPG" by modern reconstructionist polytheists just tend to be more deeply influenced by modern culture than by the ancient pre-Christian cultures that the Recons/CRs are striving to reconstruct. So UPG is, or can be used as, a value statement about the conclusion a person comes to, just as much as a description of how a person came to a particular understanding, experience or belief. For instance: When a person has a sudden inspiration about how modern physics and Jungian psychology might work together to explain a dream they had recently, it's called UPG. When a person has a sudden insight into how the connection between decorative patterns on archeological artifacts and ethical codes recorded in ancient law texts help to explain the meaning of some pre-Christian text in which a long-dead priest relates a dream he had, it's called research. The difference is in the relative value that the Recon/CR community places on the cultural artifacts and perspectives involved.

That's probably simplifying it a fair bit, and being kind of tongue-in-cheek about it, but in general, I still find the concept of "UPG" to be something that needs to be expanded on and explored a bit more. Like you mentioned, UPG experiences of the hedgewitch or the godspouse are not merely personal experiences, but come from a certain cultural context or perspective – and understanding what that context is could be very valuable. (For me, a really good example of this might be the idea of a "godslave" – a particular relationship to deity that, regardless of a person's UPG, I find to be potentially very problematic, and in that case, deserving of some serious community discernment process to explore what exactly such a relationship or experience means and how it can be integrated into a healthy spiritual life.)

Anyway, I'm rambling! Much of my frustration with this issue probably just stems from me still being relatively young and impatient to know everything and be as wise and "with it" as I think I should be. ;)

–Ali

11:08 PM
January 31, 2012


Alison Leigh Lilly

Admin

posts 194

6

Thank you for such a wonderful compliment, Harzgeist! :) I always mean to write more poetry and short stories… but never seem to get around to it!

I haven't had the problem of secrecy that you mention, and I think that might point to a difference between Druidry and Wicca/Witchcraft to some extent (and maybe also a difference between countries and cultures, too, maybe). Many of the Druid groups I know tend to emphasize public open rituals and community service projects, so finding them isn't so hard. On the other hand, as a Wiccan I attended ritual with once said, "Gods, Druids so love to talk!" :) Maybe it's that archetype of the wizened old sage that we can't quite shake, but it sometimes feels like there's a lot of emphasis also on being well-researched and well-read, and be able to wax philosophic at the drop of a hat. ;)

2:51 PM
March 1, 2012


Drea Crossett

New Member

posts 1

7

Hi there -

I think that you're my favourite blog on the PBP thus far :) I don't normally comment (usually because some blogs won't allow my comment to post properly, and what I have to say isn't important enough for me to go through emailing for a fix), but I really loved this post. I could almost have written it myself – minus the Catholicism and formal Druidry stuff (not that I didn't spend a good lot of time studying Druidry … the beliefs fit, but Once a Witch, Always a Witch).

I've been right there, knee deep in the 'not Pagan enough' anxiety. Somehow, I managed scuttle under the 'Old Guard' umbrella, so there is less judgement, but with the Pagan Community's obsession with labels, that faint fear doesn't really go away. Or it didn't until I did – take a break from the Community, that is. I blame the internet, but that's a rant for another day ;)

Anyway, beautiful post. You are a true poet.

3:41 PM
March 1, 2012


Alison Leigh Lilly

Admin

posts 194

8

Thank you so much, Drea! And thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. :) I've been experiencing some of those comment issues on others' blogs, too, so I know what you mean about how it can be discouraging!

And yes, I think you hit the nail right on the head with the Pagan community's "obsession with labels"! Maybe it's to be expected with any new religious community or tradition still trying to find its feet… but damn can it be disheartening sometimes. I blame the internet, too, of course – but then, I blame the internet for so many things. ;)